Conversations with a Rabbi on Overpopulation and Longevity
by Craig Hamilton on Saturday, May 7, 2011 at 5:20pm
Conversations with a Rabbi on Overpopulation and Longevity
:: On Wednesday, April 27, 2011 you wrote:
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I take the ages that the patriarchs lived to seriously. For example, if you had told someone in the Dark Ages how old the patriarch Joseph lived, then they would have probably laughed, but now earth has a few individuals that have surpassed his age, such that if the Torah were written today and one of these long lived individuals of the modern era were included, then we would probably have no issue with believing it. So my point is that if we turned back the clock even further, perhaps the ages of individuals have varied over time, such that none should not laugh at Noah’s reported age of dying in the Torah.
As I see it, there were two major differences in persona between Moses and Noah. Moses pleaded for his people, while Noah did not. However, Noah lived longer than Moses.
Generally, an organism’s value to an ecosystem is directly correlated with how long it lives. My reasoning that Noah might have been the better man is that Noah lived longer because as far as I know both men died of natural causes. So, who was the better patriarch, Noah or Moses? And, could it be that the spine of the righteous is more associable with Noah or Methuselah than that of David, as it takes a good spine to live a long time?
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Date Initiated: 4/27/2011 10:06:54 PM
Category: Ask the Rabbi
Name: Craig Hamilton
Email: craig.hamilton.newletters@gmail.com
Yisroel Cotlar, Chabad.org to me
show details Apr 29 (9 days ago)
Indeed, the Zohar and Midrash both make note of the Noach versus Abraham/Moses in terms of praying/changing the direction.
One perspective is that the world up until the flood was indeed a very different place, where humans had greater health/strength/prosperity without anything being asked for them back. Kabbala explains that the 1st 1000 years corresponds to the Sefira of Chesed - unlimited giving.
This later changed...
Let me know if this helps.
Yours truly,
Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar
That email was helpful. Strangely, in the incorrect grammar, I saw a good answer to the question. My grandfather who was an alcoholic used to have a saying, “Un-asked-for advice stinks.” The connection was made in memory through the poor grammar of both the email and the saying.
I thought very highly of him, and he lived into his 90s. My favorite memory of him is that he introduced me to oatmeal, and I have since learned that eating oats in the morning is a very good thing to do, and much better than eating eggs (though my grandfather ate oatmeal, bacon, and eggs every day of the week for breakfast).
One of the commands of Torah is imitation of G-d. I asked myself whom do I think G-d is more like, is He like my drunk grandfather that said, “Un-asked-for advice stinks,” or would a righteous G-d want us to give Him advice? I believe that G-d wants advice (prayer), but that it is something that we shouldn’t be flippant about because He is greater than us, in the way that a pupil respects his teacher. After all, I appreciate advice even if I did not ask for it, which is receptiveness, a kingly trait. And, would not G-d, as King, be receptive? Of course he would. I don’t like is evangelism or pestering. Thus, we should be cautious not to pester G-d with prayer.
Following this path of reason, it occurred to me that G-d, Himself, advised Noah to build an ark. Noah was obedient, and perhaps that is why he lived longer. And, G-d did honor it when Moses advised G-d to save his people. After all, it is possible that we wouldn’t be studying Torah if Moses had not advised G-d to save the Jews. That is, it seems G-d wants His relationship to the world to be a two way street. Thus, I appreciate the email, as I love to study.
As far as the 1st 1000yrs, I appreciate that you shared some Kabbalah. Indeed, it does seem that the 1st 1,000 yrs are and were a time of chessed. In commentary, it would seem that we are not completely learned, such that this period of our life abounds in chessed, as we are both under the age of 1000yrs old. It is obvious that there would be much more chessed in the first 1,000yrs of mankind, as there is a certain amount of inexperience that is associable with righteous mercy. Additionally, I am able to see how Abraham, being the first Jew might also be associable with chessed through inexperience with Judaism by learning that.
Lastly, though that changed, that is not to say that it won’t change back or even that history won’t repeat itself with another destruction of the world scenario. When I read the Bible, it is that G-d says that he won’t destroy the world in the same manner, a flood, but that is not to say that G-d won’t destroy the world again. Thus, I am optimistic that people will again live to the ages that are reported in the antediluvian world.
:: On Monday, April 25, 2011 you wrote:
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I understand that G-d has commanded mankind to be fruitful and multiply, but I have read several arguments that are quite compelling for having fewer children. These arguments generally center on the dystopian idea of what the world will be like if people keep multiplying or that more attention can be given to a single child. I know Orthodox families often have many children, and my response to that has been that I feel mankind has already fulfilled this mitzvah. I feel having a large family in environmentally irresponsible, which is also incompatible with Torah. I also feel that I have been unfair in being too judgmental of large families without first investigating. On this website, I found that the Rebbe said that it is incumbent upon Jews to encourage both Jews and gentiles to fulfill their mitzvahs. So my question is; why should I enlarge my family and how much multiplying is enough?
Yisroel Cotlar, Chabad.org to me
show details Apr 29 (9 days ago)
As a Rabbi, whenever I am asked about overpopulation, I refer to a very simple point: 60 years ago, 6 million of our people were wiped out. We are not even back to that point...
I'll leave the debate to others but as a Jew, I know need every additional soul possible.
(Of course, there are other additional important factors in having more such as emotional health, etc)
Let me know if this helps.
Yours truly,
Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar
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Date Initiated: 4/25/2011 11:05:51 PM
Category: Ask the Rabbi
Name: Craig Hamilton
:: On Saturday, April 30, 2011 you responded:
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That’s an interesting point that you brought up about how 6 million were
wiped out. I notice that you did not use the word murdered. The wording
makes a huge difference. Also, I am aware that former Chief Rabbinate, R.
Ovidiah declared that all the Jews that died during this time were
sinful. What
a tragedy! Thus, if 6 million were wiped out, then it might be best to
consider whether or not that reduction in population was actually a return
to a normal more appropriate population size.
Thanks for causing me for realizing that line of thinking, as it caused me
to believe in the ideal population size of the Israelites: it is in the
Torah in the census given in the book of Numbers. The ideal enrollment of
Israelites able to bear arms is 603,550. Furthermore, Joshua only wanted
the soldiers that would lap their water like dogs. This should be thought
to be the ideal number, as this is the number given when the Jews came out
of Egypt, as the Exodus was a period of time where the Jews merited the
favor of G-d. And, the enrollment of the Levites and Priests over the age
of one month should add another 23,000. Though this number is given at a
later date, I believe it to be most correct, as it is said that the Levites
were the only tribe strong enough to circumcise their children in the
desert.
Now that is not to say that all those whom say they are Jews, or that have
papers to “prove” that they are Jews are in fact Jews. In fact, it wouldn’t
make sense to simply order the death of many people without first
determining whether or not they are guilty according to Torah law.
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Date Initiated: 4/25/2011 11:05:51 PM
Category: Ask the Rabbi
Name: Craig Hamilton
Yisroel Cotlar, Chabad.org to me
show details May 2 (6 days ago)
That deduction was not accurate. My use of "wiped out" was only in order to bring home the idea of replenishing the Jewish Nation....
There is not even a discussion on the barbaric nature of the murders that took place.
Yours truly,
Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar
Craig Hamilton to Yisroel
show details May 3 (4 days ago)
The argument is closed. I appreciate the response that 6 million Jews were murdered. I have felt that this is the case for some time, so I haven’t appreciated euphemisms for something of such magnitude. I would say, “Wiped out,” is a euphemism for murdered, as murder is suggestive of an evil act that is done, while it is written that G-d wiped out humanity in the story of Noah. The difference in the case of Noah is that humanity, except for Noah, was wicked, such that respect is not given for their deaths. It is not on the account of wicked sons that the Israelites merited rescue from enslavement from G-d.
Given that you are a teacher, I hope that you appreciate my response to the euphemism, trying to respect your words, but also making clear the meaning of them, such that if you felt a greater degree of accuracy was needed, you would have a chance to review my thoughts on them. The pinpoint accuracy that righteous Jews espouse is one reason that I have been attracted to the Jewish nation, and though Moses did not live as long as Noah, I see that the accuracy of living in Mosaic Law is far more pleasing than that of only observing the laws of Noah. Thus, there is the evidence of greater quality of life through observance of the Mosaic Law over quantity of days spent on earth in Noachide Law that occurs to me when reading Torah.
That occurred to me through reading your grammatical errors, and your belief that gentiles are not as worthy of something, such as medical treatment, provided that you accept the words of Maimonides as canon. I will add my awareness that the word rabbi translates both as teacher and healer. Even still, the words of Moses are good for a gentile to learn simply as healthy ways of living, and anyone who observes them helps make the world a better place. For example, it would be good for creation if gentiles followed the practices of sustainable farming, as G-d related them to Moses. The argument is closed by way of that the 1st 1000yrs of G-d’s relationship with humanity was one of chessed, and the commandment of imitation of G-d, as that means being chessed for the first thousand years of our lifetimes.
This also leads into another question of mine, which was indirectly answered. I often read on chabad.org that certain aspects of Judaism defy reason. Well, for me, when I left Christianity, it was because I had found it unreasonable. Having gone to a Christian College, just before I thought I was going to pass on, I decided that if I died, I did not believe the Christian story, but that I believed the Torah and Mosaic Law as someone within the nation. I began to question that if both Christians and Jews are well behaved, and many Christians are indeed well behaved, and both religions have aspects central to their dogma that defy reason, what is to say that Judaism and Christianity religions aren’t equal? I should note that in general, I find no reason to believe that Jews if more numerous would have done as the Christians did throughout the Middle and Dark Ages, as the New Testament doesn’t tell Christians to go on crusades, ask Jews to move from country to country, suggest genocide of the Jews (Hitler claimed to be a Christian), or even inquisitions. My first answer to my question that I had come up with was that the Christian story was not true, while the Jewish story was true, but that answer was not satisfying. Now, I have a better answer: at least when Judaism asks people to do unreasonable things it is more accurate and precise about what should be done.
You have my blessings on the replenishment of the Jewish people. Your responses continue to replenish me, furthering my ability to engage in tzedukkah. I really appreciate www.chabad.org and its seemingly endless material that I can study. If I had money, then I would donate it, but instead I have thoughts and ideas, so I contribute them, as I continue to meditate on Torah. As I read on chabad.org, to one person G-d has given money, to another he has given something else. Hopefully, I can help chabad.org replenish humanity to through contributing within my means.
The use of the word replenishment with respect to its accuracy is exquisite, and will go into my vocabulary.
The first mistake was mine by asking the wrong question. I approached the Torah through the idea of which human I wanted to emulate most. It is G-d that we should be imitating.
Yours truly,
Craig Hamilton
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